Curse

Thom · Jul 11, 2005, 06:32 AM // 06:32

Enough of the "I saw 1v1 once in the arenas" posts. It happens, but won't get you to the HoH or to the top of the Guild ladder.

I was enjoying some 4v4 team action tonight with a PuG that consisted of a ranger (yours truely), two warriors(both hammer) and a monk. We were hardly the elite team and we made plenty of mistakes (like one of our warriors who carried rebirth--grrrr), but we where about 20-4 on the night. 4v4 is its own game and it isn't hard for a good team to go 20+ in a row, but the night's experiment demonstrated that casters aren't neccessary for a solid build.

Strategy is neccessary. Having 2 warriors and a ranger gives your opponent 1 soft target which should be prepared to defend itself. You know what your opponent's best move is, so you respond by countering it. In the standard situation, the ranger shuts down the primary healing monk and the warriors hit the remaining targets in this order: Mo, Me, Ne, El, Ra, Wa. If you see three monks, you spread out over all three targets. If there are no monks, the ranger shuts down a caster. If you are against all hard targets you focus and hope your healing provides the advantage.

Sounds kind of complicated, but it quickly becomes automatic with any well led PuG. The philosophy is simple: you are better in a longer battle, so extend the battle through target selection and lack of soft targets for the opponent. If you see two monks, the opponent is already damage deficient so breaking there healing is top priority and not difficult with the interrupt available with two hammers and a shutdown ranger. Your two biggest weaknesses are Mesmers which kills the monks self heal and Necros which are annoying in long battles, so they are your first targets. The point is your tactics create a battle that you can win as a warrior. I feel much of these advantages can and will be extend to the tombs, but are more difficult to impliment than the spike count down.

OT: I saw a team try to run both the necro suicide and the spirit spam in the arenas. I had a good laugh, since both builds are pretty much useless in 4v4. Also saw a few spike builds which where beaten by some quick rezzing--there again it is hard to effectively transfer this concept to the arena. It is nice to know that these builds are so popular at the moment that they are totally misused by "noobs". I hope that there are more good ideas that go cookie cutter soon, since it makes for nice variety in opponents.

..shade!! · Jul 11, 2005, 10:24 AM // 10:24

bad troll 2/10

Howling Wind · Jul 11, 2005, 11:32 AM // 11:32

Honestly you won't run into 1v1 situations too often and if you do your skills setup and your timing will be more of a major factor. I can see what you mean by not many "magic defensive" skills as physical defenses but look hey you get spellbreaker the ultimate defense against casters and other monk skills like reversal of fortune or healing hands. I won't say warriors are useless against casters, I mean you could take down a caster by say having a monk cast spellbreaker or the other mentioned skills on you and knockhim down with your hammer for 5 seconds then just dish away dmg. Not perfect but it works.

timmo567 · Jul 11, 2005, 12:04 PM // 12:04

Ever heard of a mesmer?

Thom · Jul 11, 2005, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Warrior counters come in two forms: stances and enchantments. Stances have a long recharge and can be removed with Wild Blow. Every warrior centered build shout have multiple enchantment removals. If you have 3 warriors on a target, you only need 2 of 24 skills and they can overcome most counters.

Walt · Jul 11, 2005, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

Warrior counters come in two forms: stances and enchantments. Stances have a long recharge and can be removed with Wild Blow. Every warrior centered build shout have multiple enchantment removals. If you have 3 warriors on a target, you only need 2 of 24 skills and they can overcome most counters.

Ward against Melee always gets no love.

You also forgot conditions (such as Blind, Weakness and Crippled).

eventhorizen · Jul 11, 2005, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

Enough of the "I saw 1v1 once in the arenas" posts. It happens, but won't get you to the HoH or to the top of the Guild ladder.

I was enjoying some 4v4 team action tonight with a PuG that consisted of a ranger (yours truely), two warriors(both hammer) and a monk. We were hardly the elite team and we made plenty of mistakes (like one of our warriors who carried rebirth--grrrr), but we where about 20-4 on the night. 4v4 is its own game and it isn't hard for a good team to go 20+ in a row, but the night's experiment demonstrated that casters aren't neccessary for a solid build.

Strategy is neccessary. Having 2 warriors and a ranger gives your opponent 1 soft target which should be prepared to defend itself. You know what your opponent's best move is, so you respond by countering it. In the standard situation, the ranger shuts down the primary healing monk and the warriors hit the remaining targets in this order: Mo, Me, Ne, El, Ra, Wa. If you see three monks, you spread out over all three targets. If there are no monks, the ranger shuts down a caster. If you are against all hard targets you focus and hope your healing provides the advantage.

Sounds kind of complicated, but it quickly becomes automatic with any well led PuG. The philosophy is simple: you are better in a longer battle, so extend the battle through target selection and lack of soft targets for the opponent. If you see two monks, the opponent is already damage deficient so breaking there healing is top priority and not difficult with the interrupt available with two hammers and a shutdown ranger. Your two biggest weaknesses are Mesmers which kills the monks self heal and Necros which are annoying in long battles, so they are your first targets. The point is your tactics create a battle that you can win as a warrior. I feel much of these advantages can and will be extend to the tombs, but are more difficult to impliment than the spike count down.

OT: I saw a team try to run both the necro suicide and the spirit spam in the arenas. I had a good laugh, since both builds are pretty much useless in 4v4. Also saw a few spike builds which where beaten by some quick rezzing--there again it is hard to effectively transfer this concept to the arena. It is nice to know that these builds are so popular at the moment that they are totally misused by "noobs". I hope that there are more good ideas that go cookie cutter soon, since it makes for nice variety in opponents.

Dude no offence but getting 2 Warriors a Monk and a Ranger automatically gives you a 10 to 1 advantage imo in 4v4 arenas.
As for your target calling Id pummel a mesmer or elementalist first, shutting them down and testing the monks ability to heal, if it cant heal the team loses a dangerous caster, if it can heal and deals with your damage then focus switches.
Much rather have a monk healing while im focused on a caster, than a caster casting while im focused on a monk. Of course sometimes the monk is too powerful and needs put out of action first, and thats when ability to follow calls and use judgement becaomse the deciding factor.

Strategy, well it plays it part, but strategy changes with every second in a fight, sometimes things will go exactly in your favour and you can stick to your basic plan, but most of the time you will be required to alter and adapt and create your own whilst you fight.

As for 1v1's, they are not rare in PvP whatsoever but I guess it depends on how much PvP you do. Iv found that in HoH when attacking 2 engaged foes, (in other words once you have pwned the team you fought against first and go looking for enemies and find two other teams still fighting) that very quickly after taking out both times monks/prime targets the whole thing turns into a lot of scared enemies turning and fighting, albiet missing the key aspects of their team, and very quickly it can degenerate into a huge mass brawl. Ofcourse your blitzkreig strike should secure you the advantage, and as long as you focus on really dangerous foes, and your monks and defensive strat holds together, you should have no trouble in despatching the opponents.

Speaking as a Warrior in those experiances, its like being let off a leash.

Yes direct confrontation between yourself and solo enemies can and does occur anywhere a fight takes place. There are no certainties in War, im surprised you do not understand this.

Jul 11, 2005, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Air Eles rule 4v4 Arena due to Blinding Flash. They get the self defense needed to take out Wars and Rangers while still being a high damage dealer to casters. I'd rather spawn in to a team with 1 Warrior and an Ele than 2 Warriors for that reason precisely.

Deathlord · Jul 11, 2005, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Seeing as how i've played significantly in PVP areas both as a axe warrior, aeromancer, and a protection monk, I can see where you are definetly wrong. Casters are limited by their energy and defense. In a 8v8, my axe warrior does get blinded in the first few seconds. But after it wears off, I hardly ever see it being recasted unless a huge part of my team is already dead. I know why this happens because I do the same thing on my aeromancer, casting a 13 second blinding flash helps out when I first get into battle. But theres no time between casting lightning orb and lightning strike to do it again unless it's completely neccesary. Also, i'll assume that you've never learned about strafeing, or else you wouldn't complain about un-avoidable moves. Almost too many times in GvG my Lightning orb has either been blocked because he ran behind a object, or he simply strafed side to side. There aren't any stable non-projectile, non-exhausting, and spammable spell that I know of. IW is HARDLY a great skill. If you want to utilize it to maximum attacking powers, then you'll be nearly defenseless. Not to mention how easy it is to shatter enchantment and the player is USELESS for more than half a minute. I'll just give you some advice, try and find out why there are so many hardcore guilds that don't lose to your builds, and that don't use a superior awesome countering build. It doesn't exist, your ranting isn't true, it's more of a "I died in competition arena to a IW, a Aeromancer, and a necro as a Pre-Made paladin build. Therefore, PVP in GW is crap".

Yukito Kunisaki · Jul 11, 2005, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ednemak

We deal as much as rangers, except they go ranged.

This of course with no skills

Are you joking? we need energy to use half the skills, and 20 energy isnt that much, plus if you have mending on you only have 1 mana regeneration

No, that only happens because monks dont charge at you and attack you with a sword, axe, or hammer...

You have to be pretty bad to die in a corner from a warrior

...

Have you ever played a warrior -_-

You use mending. What does that make you? A good warrior? lol
It's possible to jam a monk into a corner with two warriors. Not easy, but not impossible...

You use energy with your warrior skills? I suppose the adrenaline skills use energy too then eh? Obviously, you don't know any energy management skills either.

I play warrior all the time. I know their strengths and weaknesses. I don't need someone who uses mending to tell me I'm wrong...

Thom · Jul 12, 2005, 05:29 AM // 05:29

even- If a w/w/r/mo team knows what they are doing they should average about 10:1 in the arena. My team was pretty casual and could have done better. The point was that if a casual team was winning more than they lost with a warrior centered build, there is hope yet for warriors. Obviously a solid team would do better. As far as targeting order, you need someone targetting that is reading the situation to do things right. I am in favor of a ranger shutting down a monk, since it really doesn't do much good to shutdown a character that is dying. If the monk is poor at healing, the ranger solo kills the monk and the round as most likely finished already.

It is clear that each situations is unique, but you need to have an idea what you are doing, so you aren't reinventing the wheel as each battle begins. Flexiblity is good, but it does no good to tell the reader to just be flexible. If you have a strategy that forces the opponent into a move, it puts you in control and gives you the ability to plan further into the battle.

I did forget about wards and conditions. Condition removal, like enchantment removal should be standard. I would definitely have a martyr monk if I were running 5 warriors. Blind should be called out for removal just as Backfire is. Wards are awesome and there is very little you can do against WaM if a team knows there stuff. It is an area effect, so you watch for someone to leave or withdraw to fight on your own terms.

=HT=Ingram · Jul 12, 2005, 05:42 AM // 05:42

disrupting shot and disrupting lunge are your friends...

Use them frequently... Also Frozen Soil... Boy is that a frustrating little ranger skill... trust me. they have their purpose too..

Phades · Jul 12, 2005, 06:00 AM // 06:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

Wards are awesome and there is very little you can do against WaM if a team knows there stuff. It is an area effect, so you watch for someone to leave or withdraw to fight on your own terms.

This was my reference to luring and seperation. It is easier to lure out someone who is a denial or offensive character than a defensive or counter character. When this is achieved then 1v1 situations are very possible. It doesnt really matter how many people there are per side. It does, however, fall to the other team's ability to react and regroup on the stranded character.

This cant happen if both sides are unwilling to commit, but we werent talking about staring matches i think.

Kashrlyyk · Jul 12, 2005, 07:31 AM // 07:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

You use energy with your warrior skills? I suppose the adrenaline skills use energy too then eh? Obviously, you don't know any energy management skills either.

And you don´t seem to know soothing image and spirit shackles!

Schorny · Jul 12, 2005, 08:10 AM // 08:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

Also saw a few spike builds which where beaten by some quick rezzing--there again it is hard to effectively transfer this concept to the arena.

We played around some time ago with
1 Mo
1 Ra
2 E

We used frozen soil to prevent ressing and our monk's job was to survive as long as possible (that is a very neat strategy - the monk is not specced for healing, but for surving. I have won a countless time because all enemies are shooting at me and my team kills them slowly

). It worked quite well. So you _can_ bring them to 4v4, you just need to adjust a bit.

Thom · Jul 12, 2005, 02:00 PM // 14:00

Schorny-- You "can" transfer about anything, but they aren't as effective as their 8v8 counterpart. Two elementalist don't drop someone quick enough, especially against a hard target. Most 4v4 monks should be speced to stay alive, than have some spot healing and removal.

Schorny · Jul 12, 2005, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

Schorny-- You "can" transfer about anything, but they aren't as effective as their 8v8 counterpart. Two elementalist don't drop someone quick enough, especially against a hard target.

You can also play a 4 ele team. I did this in random arena (it happend that all 4 people were air ele). It worked quite well, because:
1 Lighting Surge + 4 Lighting Orb: 500 damage with 25% armor penetration on a monk. That _does_ hurt

Allthough we had no frozen soil :/

And after that strike, 4 chain lightnings for another mass of damage.
If we had frozen soil, we would have won more than just 10-15 games (don't remember exactly, but we lost to a 3 or 4 warrior team

)

I totally agree that 4v4 is different than Tombs and GvG (these two are also different to each other). But a good strategy in Tombs is not necessary bad for arena. Also, it is not necessary good. But some strategies are, to a degree, good in both or all three PvP Types.

Mulatto · Jul 12, 2005, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Principa Discordia

Speaking as a player, not as a moderator, learn to play the game before whining about getting owned so much. The simple fact is that PvP doesn't suck, it's just that you suck against casters. This thread is utter trash and states practically zero fact.

heres your facts

It’s simple, and it works because they are taken advantage of the over powered skills.

with no runes, spells or armor to increase your damage

Chain Lightning - Spell
Target foe and up to two other foes near your target are struck for 10-82 lightning damage. This spell has 25% armor penetration

Lightning Orb - Spell
Lightning Orb flies towards target foe and strikes for 10-82 lightning damage if it hits. This spell has 25% armor penetration.

Lightning Strike - Spell
Strike target foe for 5-41 lightning damage. This spell has 25% armor penetration.

% based attacks that means the more armor u have the more it penetrates

if it was cumulative
like a warrior 85x5 = 425 armor.
425 x .25 or (25%) = 106.25 armor penetration.
soo 425 - 106.25 = 318.75

if by location

this whole game runs on armor
its like running out there with your Cuirass off + 1/2 your leggings off

Quick casting Quick recharge. and low enegry

I say u get to know the facts would be 85 x .25.
the numbers are still the same and the effect still the same

And also some one like u shouldnt be a "moderator" because your very one sided. probably get kicked off the post but if your only reply to people is stop whining... then we know u like the spike group because u like how over powered and cheap they really are. dude get a off it

sino-soviet · Jul 12, 2005, 08:30 PM // 20:30

I could barely understand you, might want to try editing. The mod is close minded? Please. If you can't think of one thing to do while you are being hit by air spikes, you might want to rethink who you are calling close minded.

deathwearer · Jul 12, 2005, 08:32 PM // 20:32

dude, the spiking Air El do can be avoided with Protective spirit, you have to find counter build to build and etc etc. You for sure haven't played much pvp or you still don't understand how it is working if you're whining like that.